The gunshot is a result of living in a society. Before that it was the club, the poison dart, bow and arrow, knife, machete, etc., you name it. The problem isn’t the weapon used, it’s the nature of man….a work in progress, unfortunately. Doesn’t matter if the society is in a village or a castle…..it’s the human factor, and it’s not going away. Best you can do is protect your own family.
Palin is a big pro-gun hunter. She puts gunsights on her perceived enemies, and tells her rabid followers to “reload”…and uses loaded rhetoric like “salvo” and “aim”…
And then she takes those images off her website right after they have her desired effect?…and, Kreole, you’re seriously going to keep supporting her???
If he could not have used a gun, Loughner would have used an axe. And, I suspect, several fewer people would be dead today. Wars used to be fought with clubs, now we have nuclear weapons. And you think war is just what it always has been?
Technology DOES make a difference. A madman with a 30-round Glock is a different threat from a madman with a butcher knife or a baseball bat.
‘Best you can do is protect your own family?’ Really? That’s the BEST you can do?
If human nature were the only problem, then the murder rate in the United States would not be several times the murder rate in other countries. Our society is more violent than other societies because WE CHOOSE to make it , and allow it, to be so.
To quote a bit of a dialogue from 1902:
Oh, well,” said Mr. Hennessy, ” we are as the Lord made us.”
” No,” said Mr. Dooley, “let us be fair. Let us take some of the blame ourselves.”
So what’s the answer? Bury us in more anti-gun laws, and hamstring free speech till is is considerable “acceptable” by the governmental standards? Have the gov’t control our behavior with more laws and regulations? Le’t not make one tragedy into a casus belli to justify more gov’t sponsored nanny-ism and regulation of our liberty.
Yes, and of course only the Republicans and Conservatives are responsible for this heated political climate.
Last I checked it takes two people, one from each side of the issue, to have an argument.
Other pertinent facts include that politicians have done as much or more to contribute to this political client than anyone in the media on either side has.
Wow, time to bring some sanity back to the discussion.
@jmattadams Where did you get that idea? Watching his you tube videos, I can’t pin down any particular political affiliation. Hell, I can’t pin down ANYTHING. It’s not exactly lucid. The only thing even remotely approaching a political idea is some kind of diatribe about a “new currency” and, well, fiscal conspiracy theories don’t tend to be a product of the left. Those are generally the purview of the other side of the political spectrum.
@David You are correct in that it takes two sides to have an argument, and no one is denying that. However, one side in particular is using violent imagery to help spread its message. How many democrats used gun sight graphics on their campaign materials? How many use loaded (pun intended) words like reload, salvo and use blantantly obvious weapon/gun imagery to get their points across? How many revel in it? Compare the drivel coming out of Fox News, to the drivel coming out of the Huffington Post. Both are stupid and divisive, but only one is violent. That’s the point.
And I agree with the people concerned about the second amendment rights. As a responsible gun owner with a VA concealed carry permit, I’m not looking forward to the inevitable scapegoating of guns in this sad event. Yes, had he used a knife or an axe, he would likely have killed fewer people, or perhaps not anyone. He was still a crazy person, who thought it would be okay to use violence as a proxy for reasoned discussion or other civic methods, and one who was potentially egged on by a media climate that doesn’t encourage but suggests violence with a wink and a “you know what I’m talking about” attitude. That’s the core problem that needs to be addressed.
The entire discussion in the media has been about the “culture of hate speech”, Palin’s “map” with targets, her admonition to “reload”, etc…etc…yes, these are charges that could get misinterpreted by some as a call to violence.
However, why is this discussion brought up in light of the AZ shooting? It is an absolute turning of all truth on its head….without any regard to politics, these are some of the already established facts:
Loughner listed “Mein Kampf”, “Communist Manifesto”, “One Flew Over the Kuckoo’s Nest” and a litany of HS-level reading assignments as his favorite books.
He worked for Rep. Giffords in her re-election campaign of 2007.
He was deemed unacceptable for military service for an undisclosed reason.
He was known to be a “pot-smoking liberal” by some of his peers.
His MySpace page once contained this nugget of inspired logic: “If there’s no flag in the Constitution, then the flag in the film is unknown. There’s no flag in the Constitution. Therefore, the flag in the film is unknown. Burn every new and old flag that you see. Burn your flag!”
He had some sort of altar set up on his property containing a skull and some old oranges and ceremonial candles.
Why is the media mentioning Sarah Palin and the voices of the Right AT ALL after this massacre? Why aren’t they indicting our failed school systems? They would seem to have played more of a role in his life than right-wingers. Why should Palin have to comment at all about the shootings? The shootings, if anything, illustrate the contention of the Right. We are losing our moral grounding in America and the future does not bode well!
‘Last I checked it takes two people, one from each side of the issue, to have an argument.’
No, all it takes is one person to say, “We need Healthcare reform”, and another stupid person to lie about’ Death Panels’ then talk about ‘reloading’ and draw little gunsights everywhere.
It does not take two people to create an atomosphere uf ignorance and violence.
From Salon.com: “Not long after the Saturday shooting of Gabrielle Giffords and 19 other people in Tucson, Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y., announced plans to introduce legislation to ban the type of high-capacity magazines used by the shooter, Jared Loughner. He reportedly fired 31 shots before having to reload, at which point bystanders tackled him. Under the Clinton-era assault weapons ban, which expired in 2004, manufacture of magazines containing more than 10 rounds was illegal.”
If you can’t defend yourself with a fast-shooting 10-round semiautomatic pistol, I question what you are up to. That was more like an antipersonnel weapon.
You know who are the real victims in all this? The poor, beleaguered, put-upon conservatives. All they wanted to do was bring guns to political rallies, talk about armed revolution and “Second Amendment solutions” if they didn’t get their way, and carry signs with Thomas Jefferson’s quote about the tree of liberty needing to be refreshed by blood. And they wanted to do all this without consequences. Shame on all of you for making them feel guilty!
Palin is not responsible for the violence. You give her far too much credit. Her rhetoric is irresponsible but it’s not responsible for this.
The only thing here you can really put some blame on is assault weapons. With a standard clip he wouldn’t have been able to do that much damage before being taken down.
As for other stupid accusations, the shooter is an independent.
The answer is not in confiscating guns, but in not letting nut jobs buy guns in the first place. Better screening methods as part of the application for gun permit are required.
While I agree that there is a problem with too much hate mongering in political rhetoric, and with someone being able to shoot 30 bullets before reloading, I disagree with this being the issue with this shooting.
The real issue is there are people not getting the psychological help they need, so there is no way for a legitimate gun retailer doing a background check to know that he is selling a gun to a person who is mentally unhinged. The fact that he was asked not to return to college without obtaining psychological help does not go into any database that is searchable. It is up to individuals to get the help that they need, and many refuse. Without taking away an individuals civil rights there is no solution to this dilemma.
No one, sane or not, needs to be able to shoot 30 bullets without reloading with a concealable weapon. Even Police Officer Handguns, the ones who go after bad guys every day, don’t have the ability to shoot 30 bullets without reloading.
I’ve been around “my share” of violence, and found out that “society” could benefit more by listening to folks like the Dalai Lama than Limbaugh. I know how to use weapons, prefer not to. My tai chi instructor also noted (looking pointedly at me) that some folks bodies ARE weapons- they don’t need the external ones.
The REAL point is this: It is what we are inside, and even given those internal “arguments”, how we USE what is inside, that determines the impact we have, on ourselves, and on others. “Weapons” can be a tool for violence, OR peace-when restrained.
Overcoming some self-destructive “internal” components resulting from past “experience” is difficult, takes years, and is “tough”. Surrendering to either outside or internal forces for destruction, of ourselves or others, is easier– unfortunately.
It has nothing to do with “living in society.” It’s living in a society where any legislator who wants common sense gun regulation automatically gets million dollars poured into campaigns against them.
I had a call from the NRA that asked whether I knew that Hillary Clinton was planning to work with the UN take away my guns. No, I didn’t know. Even the NRA doesn’t know. They made it up, and some whackos believe them.
”^ JMATTADAMS point is more appropriate that 90% of what I hear coming out of the left.”
He has also tried to say that the shooter was a leftist, making himself guilty of exactly the same garbage you’re talking about. Then again, you yourself said he was a “Fellow Democrat,” which is blatantly false since he’s a registered Independent.
Why the obsession with the 30 round magazine? I suppose if he was shooting a shotgun it would have been better? Maybe if he had set off a bomb instead? The gun has nothing to this guy being a whack-job. Hopefully he gets the death penalty so my taxes don’t go to support this douchebag in prison.
churchie- the parents just released a statement. It was on the tv. Some folks leave their parents and have real life experiences to build upon. Maybe if your parents had let you have a life????
Song Title: Time will tell
Subject: an R/B song about cutting ties. based on the infamous saying “time will tell” with a Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde Twist.
Video URL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UMqtnZ487s
kreole over 13 years ago
The gunshot is a result of living in a society. Before that it was the club, the poison dart, bow and arrow, knife, machete, etc., you name it. The problem isn’t the weapon used, it’s the nature of man….a work in progress, unfortunately. Doesn’t matter if the society is in a village or a castle…..it’s the human factor, and it’s not going away. Best you can do is protect your own family.
Charles Brobst Premium Member over 13 years ago
It’s the nature of Palin.
riley05 over 13 years ago
Palin is a big pro-gun hunter. She puts gunsights on her perceived enemies, and tells her rabid followers to “reload”…and uses loaded rhetoric like “salvo” and “aim”…
And then she takes those images off her website right after they have her desired effect?…and, Kreole, you’re seriously going to keep supporting her???
cdward over 13 years ago
Let’s remember that her office had been vandalized earlier and that she had received threats because of her support of health care reform.
Doughfoot over 13 years ago
Kreole,
If he could not have used a gun, Loughner would have used an axe. And, I suspect, several fewer people would be dead today. Wars used to be fought with clubs, now we have nuclear weapons. And you think war is just what it always has been?
Technology DOES make a difference. A madman with a 30-round Glock is a different threat from a madman with a butcher knife or a baseball bat.
‘Best you can do is protect your own family?’ Really? That’s the BEST you can do?
If human nature were the only problem, then the murder rate in the United States would not be several times the murder rate in other countries. Our society is more violent than other societies because WE CHOOSE to make it , and allow it, to be so.
To quote a bit of a dialogue from 1902:
Oh, well,” said Mr. Hennessy, ” we are as the Lord made us.”
” No,” said Mr. Dooley, “let us be fair. Let us take some of the blame ourselves.”
Beenthere over 13 years ago
So what’s the answer? Bury us in more anti-gun laws, and hamstring free speech till is is considerable “acceptable” by the governmental standards? Have the gov’t control our behavior with more laws and regulations? Le’t not make one tragedy into a casus belli to justify more gov’t sponsored nanny-ism and regulation of our liberty.
bob875m over 13 years ago
The left will jump on this to take away our second amendment rights as a prelude to negating other rights they think will help them control us.
dshepard over 13 years ago
Yes, and of course only the Republicans and Conservatives are responsible for this heated political climate.
Last I checked it takes two people, one from each side of the issue, to have an argument.
Other pertinent facts include that politicians have done as much or more to contribute to this political client than anyone in the media on either side has.
shadyproject over 13 years ago
Wow, time to bring some sanity back to the discussion.
@jmattadams Where did you get that idea? Watching his you tube videos, I can’t pin down any particular political affiliation. Hell, I can’t pin down ANYTHING. It’s not exactly lucid. The only thing even remotely approaching a political idea is some kind of diatribe about a “new currency” and, well, fiscal conspiracy theories don’t tend to be a product of the left. Those are generally the purview of the other side of the political spectrum.
@David You are correct in that it takes two sides to have an argument, and no one is denying that. However, one side in particular is using violent imagery to help spread its message. How many democrats used gun sight graphics on their campaign materials? How many use loaded (pun intended) words like reload, salvo and use blantantly obvious weapon/gun imagery to get their points across? How many revel in it? Compare the drivel coming out of Fox News, to the drivel coming out of the Huffington Post. Both are stupid and divisive, but only one is violent. That’s the point.
And I agree with the people concerned about the second amendment rights. As a responsible gun owner with a VA concealed carry permit, I’m not looking forward to the inevitable scapegoating of guns in this sad event. Yes, had he used a knife or an axe, he would likely have killed fewer people, or perhaps not anyone. He was still a crazy person, who thought it would be okay to use violence as a proxy for reasoned discussion or other civic methods, and one who was potentially egged on by a media climate that doesn’t encourage but suggests violence with a wink and a “you know what I’m talking about” attitude. That’s the core problem that needs to be addressed.
HabaneroBuck over 13 years ago
The entire discussion in the media has been about the “culture of hate speech”, Palin’s “map” with targets, her admonition to “reload”, etc…etc…yes, these are charges that could get misinterpreted by some as a call to violence.
However, why is this discussion brought up in light of the AZ shooting? It is an absolute turning of all truth on its head….without any regard to politics, these are some of the already established facts:
Loughner listed “Mein Kampf”, “Communist Manifesto”, “One Flew Over the Kuckoo’s Nest” and a litany of HS-level reading assignments as his favorite books.
He worked for Rep. Giffords in her re-election campaign of 2007.
He was deemed unacceptable for military service for an undisclosed reason.
He was known to be a “pot-smoking liberal” by some of his peers.
His MySpace page once contained this nugget of inspired logic: “If there’s no flag in the Constitution, then the flag in the film is unknown. There’s no flag in the Constitution. Therefore, the flag in the film is unknown. Burn every new and old flag that you see. Burn your flag!”
He had some sort of altar set up on his property containing a skull and some old oranges and ceremonial candles.
Why is the media mentioning Sarah Palin and the voices of the Right AT ALL after this massacre? Why aren’t they indicting our failed school systems? They would seem to have played more of a role in his life than right-wingers. Why should Palin have to comment at all about the shootings? The shootings, if anything, illustrate the contention of the Right. We are losing our moral grounding in America and the future does not bode well!
Simon_Jester over 13 years ago
I just want to point out something:
How many times in the past have conservatives made the claim that violent rock and rap lyrics lead to violent behavior?
AdmNaismith over 13 years ago
‘Last I checked it takes two people, one from each side of the issue, to have an argument.’
No, all it takes is one person to say, “We need Healthcare reform”, and another stupid person to lie about’ Death Panels’ then talk about ‘reloading’ and draw little gunsights everywhere.
It does not take two people to create an atomosphere uf ignorance and violence.
Motivemagus over 13 years ago
From Salon.com: “Not long after the Saturday shooting of Gabrielle Giffords and 19 other people in Tucson, Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y., announced plans to introduce legislation to ban the type of high-capacity magazines used by the shooter, Jared Loughner. He reportedly fired 31 shots before having to reload, at which point bystanders tackled him. Under the Clinton-era assault weapons ban, which expired in 2004, manufacture of magazines containing more than 10 rounds was illegal.” If you can’t defend yourself with a fast-shooting 10-round semiautomatic pistol, I question what you are up to. That was more like an antipersonnel weapon.
Christopher Shea over 13 years ago
You know who are the real victims in all this? The poor, beleaguered, put-upon conservatives. All they wanted to do was bring guns to political rallies, talk about armed revolution and “Second Amendment solutions” if they didn’t get their way, and carry signs with Thomas Jefferson’s quote about the tree of liberty needing to be refreshed by blood. And they wanted to do all this without consequences. Shame on all of you for making them feel guilty!
Jaedabee Premium Member over 13 years ago
Palin is not responsible for the violence. You give her far too much credit. Her rhetoric is irresponsible but it’s not responsible for this.
The only thing here you can really put some blame on is assault weapons. With a standard clip he wouldn’t have been able to do that much damage before being taken down.
As for other stupid accusations, the shooter is an independent.
Magnaut over 13 years ago
billdog the truth will not set YOU free…you cling to ignorance to reach bliss,
the problem with the left is THEY HAVEN”T!
alan.gurka over 13 years ago
The answer is not in confiscating guns, but in not letting nut jobs buy guns in the first place. Better screening methods as part of the application for gun permit are required.
CorosiveFrog Premium Member over 13 years ago
Tiger-striped Mittaines says; All that violence comes from my natural enemy; dogs! You know who had a dog? HITLER!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blondi
thirdrailmiche over 13 years ago
While I agree that there is a problem with too much hate mongering in political rhetoric, and with someone being able to shoot 30 bullets before reloading, I disagree with this being the issue with this shooting.
The real issue is there are people not getting the psychological help they need, so there is no way for a legitimate gun retailer doing a background check to know that he is selling a gun to a person who is mentally unhinged. The fact that he was asked not to return to college without obtaining psychological help does not go into any database that is searchable. It is up to individuals to get the help that they need, and many refuse. Without taking away an individuals civil rights there is no solution to this dilemma.
Jaedabee Premium Member over 13 years ago
No one, sane or not, needs to be able to shoot 30 bullets without reloading with a concealable weapon. Even Police Officer Handguns, the ones who go after bad guys every day, don’t have the ability to shoot 30 bullets without reloading.
Dtroutma over 13 years ago
I’ve been around “my share” of violence, and found out that “society” could benefit more by listening to folks like the Dalai Lama than Limbaugh. I know how to use weapons, prefer not to. My tai chi instructor also noted (looking pointedly at me) that some folks bodies ARE weapons- they don’t need the external ones.
The REAL point is this: It is what we are inside, and even given those internal “arguments”, how we USE what is inside, that determines the impact we have, on ourselves, and on others. “Weapons” can be a tool for violence, OR peace-when restrained.
Overcoming some self-destructive “internal” components resulting from past “experience” is difficult, takes years, and is “tough”. Surrendering to either outside or internal forces for destruction, of ourselves or others, is easier– unfortunately.
ARodney over 13 years ago
It has nothing to do with “living in society.” It’s living in a society where any legislator who wants common sense gun regulation automatically gets million dollars poured into campaigns against them.
I had a call from the NRA that asked whether I knew that Hillary Clinton was planning to work with the UN take away my guns. No, I didn’t know. Even the NRA doesn’t know. They made it up, and some whackos believe them.
Jaedabee Premium Member over 13 years ago
”^ JMATTADAMS point is more appropriate that 90% of what I hear coming out of the left.”
He has also tried to say that the shooter was a leftist, making himself guilty of exactly the same garbage you’re talking about. Then again, you yourself said he was a “Fellow Democrat,” which is blatantly false since he’s a registered Independent.pirate227 over 13 years ago
^Typical of Dubya, let’s see how many neighbors do we have to the North?
Back to the toon:
Oh no, this wasn’t political at all…
S_T_F_U over 13 years ago
Why the obsession with the 30 round magazine? I suppose if he was shooting a shotgun it would have been better? Maybe if he had set off a bomb instead? The gun has nothing to this guy being a whack-job. Hopefully he gets the death penalty so my taxes don’t go to support this douchebag in prison.
Dtroutma over 13 years ago
churchie- the parents just released a statement. It was on the tv. Some folks leave their parents and have real life experiences to build upon. Maybe if your parents had let you have a life????
rockngolfer over 13 years ago
I just can’t stand listening to talk radio, never have.
I start talking to the radio after about 30 seconds.
majorshadow over 13 years ago
Song Title: Time will tell Subject: an R/B song about cutting ties. based on the infamous saying “time will tell” with a Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde Twist. Video URL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UMqtnZ487s
DamYankee22 over 13 years ago
I believe that there is a law against “incitement to riot”, or something like that. Could the ranters be charged with that?